12 JANUARY 2005
Those present: David Hurley (chairman), Jacqueline Bickerstaff, Andrew Burt, David Davies, Sandy Hamilton,
Rosy Pugh, Geoff Smith, Jim Whyman (secretary).Apologies for absence: Peter Henley, Peter Mead, Matt Vincent.
1. Minutes of the meetings of 20 October 2004
After manuscript corrections to the date of the meeting and the spelling of ‘Francis’ in the first line of item 2.2.2.2.4.b, the minutes of the meeting of 20 October were signed as accurate.2. Matters arising not covered below
2….4.b David Hurley said he had had further discussion with officials at DEFRA. The Bill containing new rules on the removal of abandoned vehicles was having a second reading in parliament. When enacted, this will enable local authorities to act quickly if they deem an apparently abandoned vehicle to be “dangerous”, but it appeared there was no definition “dangerous”, nor any indication of who should decide whether a vehicle was dangerous or not. Clarification was being sought. DH
4.d David Hurley had responded to the proposed amendment to the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations (1989) in respect of amber warning beacons for abnormal load escort vehicles. He had established that there was no definition of what constituted an “abnormal” load, but it seemed this was taken to mean any load that the local police deem to require special marking.
3. Fuel Topics
a) Additive testing David Hurley said he had arranged for the two outstanding additive tests. There was uncertainty about whether or not previous results had been reported, but it was agreed any unpublished results should be included in the 2/2005 Newsletter. [Note: Results of the previous five tests were reported in 4/2004] DH
b) Other matters There was a brief discussion on the future viability of leaded petrol following the secretary’s comment that a significant number of previously listed outlets were changing their leaded tanks to diesel. No action was planned.
4. UK Legislative Matters
a) Road Humps The secretary read a letter from David Jamieson, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Department for Transport, rejecting FBHVC’s call both for a change to the regulations governing the maximum permitted height for road humps and for better standardisation of humps across the country. He stated that he believed local authorities needed the flexibility of approach allowed by current regulations. No further action was planned.
b) Restriction on disposal of vehicle parts at some council amenity sites The secretary read a letter from the Head of Waste Regulation at the Environment Agency denying any responsibility for the day-to-day management of Household Waste Recycling Centres, and stating that it is up to DEFRA to decide whether or not a local authority is fulfilling its obligations under regulations. The secretary said he would continue to try to find someone in authority who could give guidance on what scrap vehicle parts it was reasonable to expect HWRC to accept. JW
c) Consultation on proposed measures to enforce insurance “from the record” This Department for Transport consultation related to the simple proposal that it should become an offence to be the registered keeper of a vehicle the use of which is not insured in accordance with the Road Traffic Act. Vehicles under SORN would be exempt, and it was presumed that vehicles that had been off the road since before SORN was introduced would also be exempt although the wording of the consultation actually suggested otherwise. The new offence would make it possible to penalise vehicle keepers who failed to renew their insurance on time simply by comparing the DVLA register with the Motor Insurers’ Database.
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- 2 -4. UK Legislative Matters (contd)
The meeting discussed this proposal at some length. There was general approval for the principle that more needed to be done to tackle the problem of uninsured driving, but there were many concerns about the very simplistic approach adopted in the consultation. In particular, the tone of the consultation was such that it appeared to draw no distinction between having an uninsured vehicle and driving uninsured. The penalties suggested for the former proposed offence (which, of itself, does no-one any harm) were high in comparison with typical magistrates court fines imposed for the latter, which certainly does. Detail concerns were that the status of pre-SORN vehicles was not made clear; there would inevitably be a time lag between the two databases and provision would have to be made in regulation to ensure that this would not cause problems for last minute renewers; there would be problems arising from delays in recording changes of keeper; the position of vehicles insured on multi-vehicle policies was not clear; high value vehicles that are insured on a day-at-a-time basis would face an impossible situation; those whose insurance expires during a period while the vehicle concerned is being repaired would have either to renew their insurance before they were ready to put the vehicle back on the road or fiddle around with the bureaucracy of returning a tax disc and declaring SORN.
David Hurley agreed to draft a response and circulate it to the legislation team during the first part of February – the closing date for submitting a response was 25 February. JW, DHd) Review of number plate security measures DVLA had issued a consultation on a review of the regulations governing the registration of number plate suppliers. Closing date was 4 February. In general, there was little to comment upon save that item 3.10 of the consultation incorrectly ascribed to FBHVC a request that applications for plates for pre-1973 vehicles should be exempt from the requirements of the scheme (in fact the request was that the requirements for ordering plates by mail should be amended to remove the need to send original documentation by post) and item 3.11 sought to define so called “show-plates” to prevent people obtaining number plates on the basis that they were just for show purposes. The meeting agreed the secretary should draft a response for consideration by David Hurley and Sandy Hamilton correcting 3.10 and supporting most of the recommendations contained in the consultation but urging a change of regulations to allow keepers of vehicles first registered between 1973 and 2002 to obtain replacement plates in the font and style current during that period. Such a change would remove much of the reason for seeking to get round the regulations by ordering show plates. JW
e) Other Matters It was agreed that the secretary should respond to a DVLA consultation on the means by which the cost of using credit cards for Vehicle Excise Duty payments should be recovered. Four complicated structures, with various flat fees depending on the amount of VED being paid, had been offered to recover a charge that is levied by the card companies on a percentage basis. It was agreed that FBHVC should recommend that the convenience charge should also be levied on a simple percentage basis as this was the fairest and simplest method of doing so. JW
It was also agreed the secretary should look into a recently received DEFRA consultation on new proposals to translate the agricultural waste elements of the EU “Waste Framework Directive” and “Landfill Directive” into UK law with a view to checking whether or not this would have any adverse effect on those wishing to store disused machinery or vehicles in the open on farm land. JW
The secretary said he had been sent a cutting from an unknown newspaper highlighting a proposal to levy significant charges on the organisers of large events (those attracting over 6,000 people) to cover the costs of policing and checking health and safety issues. He said he had seen a report in the paper at the end of 2004, but had dismissed it as not relevant to historic vehicle activity. The cutting had been sent by someone concerned that many the larger events would be adversely affected. The secretary said he had not had time to research the background, but would do so with a view to publishing a note in the newsletter. JW
5. Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Club
The petition calling on the Prime Minister to block the proposed “annual registration fee” had reached over 50,000 signatures and had been delivered to Downing Street by a joint delegation from FBHVC and the Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Club on 14 December. There had been no acknowledgement.
It had not been possible to organise a meeting with PHVC for that day, but it was anticipated that a meeting would be arranged shortly. Tim Yeo, Shadow Transport Minister, had taken the opportunity to announce that the Conservatives would do away with any such charge if elected to power at the next election and they would also give serious consideration to reverting to a rolling date for VED exemption for historic vehicles. Greg Knight had spoken of introducing an Early Day Motion to highlight the DVLA proposal.
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- 3 -6. European Report
a) Drivers’ Code The secretary said he had looked hard at the original 1997 Drivers’ Code prepared by FBHVC and had found himself unable to make any significant improvement. However, the need for FIVA to produce a code to fulfil its obligations as a signatory to the EU Commission Road Safety Charter opened up scope for a wider ranging document, and a draft had been started, copies of which were distributed at the meeting. All agreed to advise the secretary of any misgivings or suggestions for improvement. Meanwhile, the secretary said he would try to produce a complete first draft by the end of the month for distribution to all committee members. JW; All
b) Other matters Geoff Smith reported on the progress of the proposal to recast the Driving Licence Directive which was due to be discussed shortly by the European Parliament’s Transport Committee. Through EPPA, and the good offices of two UK MEPs, FIVA had submitted amendments to the proposal that (if adopted) would protect existing entitlements in respect of towing trailers and driving unladen preserved commercial vehicles on B (ordinary car) licences. FBHVC had written to all UK MEPs serving on the committee urging their support for these amendments and for amendments tabled by other organisations that would protect the interests of historic motorcyclists. Geoff added that he was pleased with the support the FIVA Legislation team was receiving from other FIVA organisations in Europe.
The meeting congratulated David Davies on the quality of the latest issue of FIVA Actuel.
7. DVLA
Sandy Hamilton said that Michael Worthington-Williams had received an apology from DVLA following their refusal to accept a certified copy of an entry in the original vehicle register as proof of date of first registration.
There were no new substantive matters to consider, although Sandy commented that DVLA had decided not to accept documents that had been laminated for V765 applications.
8. Other matters
Sandy Hamilton handed round copies of a page from Camping and Caravanning magazine highlighting moves in France to encourage the use of dipped headlamps during the day. It also stressed the importance of carrying all motoring documents in the vehicle when driving in France.
9. January/February Newsletter
It was agreed that the covering letter handed in to Downing Street with FBHVC’s petition should be featured; there would have to be a report on consultations being considered and the usual report drawn from EPPA’s monthly updates. Rosy Pugh said she also had several photographs and was planning to use extracts from the recent FIVA Actuel.
………………………………………………Chairman Jim Whyman,Secretary.