22 FEBRUARY 2006
Those present: David Hurley (in the chair), Andrew Burt, Sandy Hamilton, Rosy Pugh, Geoff Smith,
Jim Whyman (secretary).Apologies for absence: David Davies, Jacqueline Bickerstaff, Peter Henley, Peter Mead and Matt Vincent.
1. Minutes of the meeting of 14 January 2006The minutes of the meeting of 14 January were signed as accurate.
2. Matters arising
None.
3. UK Legislative Matters
A. Position reports:
a. Measures to enforce insurance “from the record” There had been no further developments since the last meeting although David Hurley said he understood that the Department for Transport was in discussion with the Association of British Insurers about coping with fleet policies that cover any vehicle owned by the insured.
b. Improving access to public transport for the disabled David Hurley said he was awaiting written confirmation of verbal comments that he had received from relevant charities catering for the disabled supporting FBHVC’s view that operators of services using preserved historic vehicles should not be required to comply with wheel-chair access regulations. Once he had confirmation of support from the charities, David said he would take the matter further with DfT and APPHVG. DH
c. Transposing EU Directive 2004/42/CE (VOC) into UK law No further news.
d. MoT testing for fire engines David Hurley said he was working with the Fire Service Preservation Group on a joint letter to the Minister. The work had uncovered similar problems for owners of preserved ambulances. DH
e. Waste framework directive No further news.
f. Compulsory seat belt requirements for children No further news.
g. Testing requirements for new drivers of large vehicles David Hurley reported that a Driver Standards Agency consultation on proposals for the introduction of Certificates of Professional Competence (CPC) for drivers of large commercial vehicles had provided an opportunity for FBHVC to highlight the problems and costs faced by those wishing to acquire a “vocational” licence simply to allow them to drive preserved historic vehicles. Drivers using Passenger Carrying Vehicles (PCV) and Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGV) for non-commercial purposes, or as incidental to their main work, will not require CPC.
Regulations covering qualification for CPCs have to be in place by September 2006, to come into force for new PCV drivers by September 2008 and for new HGV driver a year later. The consultation proposed “grandfather” entitlement to a first CPC for existing professional drivers, who would have to undertake refresher training during the five-year validity of that first CPC before being able to renew it. It also proposed to combine some elements of qualification for a CPC for new drivers with the qualification process for a basic vocational licence, thus making the acquisition of such a licence more difficult and very much more costly with training being undertaken on modern vehicles that have no resemblance to the historic vehicles candidates were likely to drive.
The FBHVC response highlighted these points and proposed a “restricted” grade of licence that could be acquired under the existing vocational training regime using older commercial vehicles. The validity of the licence would be restricted to preserved historic vehicles used in a non-commercial context.
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- 2 -3. UK Legislative Matters (contd)
B. Other Matters
a. Violent Crime Reduction Bill No further news.
b. Insurance concerns in respect of MSA cover for events The secretary said he had arranged for a meeting with John Symes at Motor Sports House immediately prior to the committee meeting due to take place at 1500 on 21 March. David Hurley said he would make every effort to be present, although he had been hoping to be away. JW; DH
c. Occasional sales No further news.
d. Operator Licensing consultation David Hurley said he had been studying the consultation outlined at the previous meeting more closely and discussing it with colleagues in the historic commercial vehicle world. He said he would be drafting a response highlighting the unfair elements of the proposals. DH
e. Low Emission Zone proposals for London A consultation on proposals to make London a “Low Emission Zone” (LEZ) had been received. As drafted, cars, motor cycles and light commercial vehicles would not be affected. Heavier commercial vehicles would be penalised by being required to pay to enter the LEZ with the amount varying according to the cleanliness of the emissions – meaning that the oldest would pay most. This could have a profound effect on the activities of historic commercial vehicles enthusiasts within the zone. The consultation was complicated by the fact that it was a proposal to change an existing policy document and so had to be read in conjunction with that original document. David Hurley agreed to study the proposals and consult with colleagues prior to drafting a response. DH
f. The use of “Red Diesel” on tractor road runs The secretary said he had put this item on the agenda due to a series of requests for advice from clubs catering for agricultural machine following publication of an article suggesting that Customs were planning to clamp down on the use of red diesel for non-agricultural purposes. Subsequent research had shown that HM Customs and Revenue rules were very clear: red diesel could only be used on the road in tractors engaged in agricultural or forestry work making short journeys for the purpose of that work. It was clear that the use of rebated fuel for tractor runs was illegal. Some had claimed that the use of red diesel in tractors used for ploughing matches might also be illegal: there was nothing to suggest this in HM Customs and Revenue’s leaflet, but using the red diesel on the road to travel to and from the match might well be illegal as it would be difficult to argue that participating in a ploughing match was strictly agricultural work.
It was agreed that FBHVC should remind clubs that this was the law. JWg. Other Matters
A DfT Consultation on the Release of Vehicle Keeper Data from the UK Records had been published following a ministerial statement on 16 February. The closing date was 31 March. The purpose was to review the mechanism under which certain bodies such as the police, local authorities and car-park proprietors have virtually unrestricted access to the records. The behaviour of some such organisations had given rise to concern. Sandy Hamilton agreed to study the consultation and draft a response. SHThe secretary said he had received e-mail notification of a consultation on a revised Highway Code. The closing date was 10 May. He had notified those present of the web address for this document shortly before the meeting. David Hurley commented that he was concerned that there appeared to be no mention of the need to look out for slow vehicles on dual carriageways and he was also concerned about priorities at mini roundabouts. Those present agreed to let the secretary have any comments by the end of March so a draft response could be prepared for discussion at the 26 April meeting. All
No-one present knew any reason why vehicles, such as the BSA front-wheel drive cars of the 1930s, with single front transmission brakes should be outlawed and it was agreed that while the ramifications of the Company Law Reform Bill might change club directors’ responsibilities, increasing their exposure to personal liability, this issue was outside the remit of FBHVC.
4. All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group
The meeting planned for sometime in February was now like to take place in March. A list of topics for discussion (as agreed at the previous meeting) had been submitted.
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5. European ReportAndrew Burt reported that Michel de Thomasson (FIVA President), Horst Bruning (FIVA Legislation Commission Chairman) and Andrew Turner (EPPA) had gone to Brussels in January to meet Stephan Tostmann, the head of the Commission’s DG Transport and Energy (TREN) Road Safety Unit and Theodossios Mastrominas, Deputy Head of Culture in DG Sport and Culture. They had been welcomed and it was clear that there was good support for FIVA’s position.
Andrew also reported that he had recently attended a meeting of the FIVA history and heritage commission where he had been able to persuade this almost moribund group to change its emphasis from “history” to “heritage” with a view to improving the historic vehicle movement’s heritage credentials in order to widen FIVA’s influence. Some of those present had noted the Drive It Day initiative in UK.
David Davies had submitted a report on a recent meeting of the FIVA legislation commission outlining the information that had been submitted for discussion – inevitably, environmental considerations and control of emissions were of most concern, but there were no new topics to be worried about.
Geoff Smith reported that the survey of the historic vehicle movement in Europe was going to plan. The UK element had been completed, save for a survey of clubs themselves. The UK material was being used by the analysts to set their templates. The trade surveys had come back from four other countries, and responses to those countries carrying out the survey on line were encouraging. Geoff also reported on meetings with Dutch and French groups both of whom had provided valuable positive feedback. Geoff closed by suggesting that someone from FBHC needed to start planning an announcement of the report in UK to make maximum impact. He felt it should be in Westminster shortly after parliament re-assembled in October in order to ensure presence of the maximum number of influential people. Committee
6. DVLA
Sandy Hamilton said the next DVLA liaison meeting would take place on 28 March. There were several topics to discuss, such as the problem that had caused some V 11 notices for tractor owners to demand MoTs, whether DVLA had any plans to take forward any of the ideas falling out of the inspection consultation report, and problems arising from the lack of a formal system for approval of “dating certificates”. He said he would be submitting a list of topics for discussion shortly. SH
Sandy went on to say that DVLA had a freeze on system amendments that was likely to last over a year: this was caused by the combination of a change of mainframe computer and the need to prepare for an amalgamation of the DVLA and DVLNI operations. The ability to correct errors on individual records was not affected.
During discussion, it was agreed that the mechanism for notifying the private scrapping of a vehicle should be on the agenda for the liaison meeting as regulations appeared to demand that a certificate of disposal be obtained before a record could be voided. The secretary commented that FBHVC had highlighted this potential problem, especially in respect of historic vehicles that were outside the scope of the End of Life Directive in response to a consultation in 2003. SH
7. Implementation of measures in Vision 2005-10
David Hurley said that John Billard had agreed to join the legislation committee from the April meeting. David commented that no-one had, as yet, volunteered to understudy his position, but Sandy Hamilton said that Nigel Harrison (an Individual Supporter from Cheshire) had agreed to back up his work with DVLA. Rosy Pugh said that she and David Davies had agreed to act as mutual understudies.
8. Other matters None.
9. March/April Newsletter
Reports on the topics covered during the meeting, a note on progress with the new insurance scheme and possibly a report on restrictions on the use of preserved military vehicles in other countries in Europe would be included. Rosy said that initial quotes had been obtained for a change from A4 to A5 later in the year – aside from avoiding the Royal Mail surcharge on large envelopes, this would provide greater flexibility for production.
……………………………………………… Chairman Jim Whyman, Secretary.