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24 AUGUST 2005

Those present: David Hurley (chairman), Jacqueline Bickerstaff, Sandy Hamilton, Peter Mead, Rosy Pugh, Geoff Smith, Jim Whyman (secretary).
Also in attendance: Reg Salway, an MoT tester & member of the Morris Minor Owners Club, and from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Simon Duffin, Communications Manager for VOSA’s MoT Compliance & Computerisation team and John Stephenson, Senior Policy Development Engineer from the Testing Standards Policy and Strategy team.

Apologies for absence: Andrew Burt, David Davies, Peter Henley, and Matt Vincent.

David Hurley welcomed Reg Salway, Simon Duffin and John Stephenson to the meeting and thanked them all for taking the time and trouble to attend.

1. MoT Testing

Simon Duffin and John Stephenson made a Powerpoint presentation that explained the background to MoT computerisation and emphasised that neither the MoT test itself nor the standards that a vehicle is expected to achieve had been affected by computerisation. Computerisation was expected to be complete by early 2006. Examples of problems that may be apparent to a tester but which should not cause an MoT failure, such as oil leaks and worn prop-shaft bearings, were also covered.

The meeting then discussed various specific problems that had been highlighted either in the classic vehicle press or direct to the secretary and which had, apparently, arisen from computerisation. Each problem was answered with a clear, straightforward, explanation. The difficulties all seemed to stem from lack of familiarity with the system and how to get help when it was needed. Testers confronted with something unusual, or with unusual circumstances, might blame the system for preventing progress on a test when in fact the problem was simply not knowing what to do. This means the problems being experienced at present are likely to be transitional as testers get used to the system and as discrepancies with records get ironed out. Practical questions raised by Reg Salway (whose business had yet to change to the computerised system) were of particular interest.

Topics included:-
testing vehicles without registrations;
problems arising from lack of knowledge of vehicle weights (these are essential for the correct function of the roller brake test and it seems from the large number of queries arising on this subject that many testers must have either been carrying out this test incorrectly in the past or using guesswork to estimate the weight of vehicles being tested);
the use of a decelerometer to test brakes when vehicle weight is unknown;
correct testing procedure for cars with transmission brakes;
the mechanism for correcting data entry mistakes; and
the routine, involving DVLA, for dealing with registration records that differ from those apparent on the vehicle being presented for test.

There was a brief discussion on the subject of test fees, and it was understood that a proposal might be made in the not to distant future that would make the cost of re-testing after a minor failure less daunting.

David Hurley thanked Simon and John and commented that their presentation would be well received at the AGM.

In view of the time spent on the first item of the Agenda, David Hurley suggested that the remainder of the agenda should be curtailed and limited to time sensitive items only. All present agreed.

2. Minutes of the meeting of 29 June 2005

The minutes of the meeting of 29 June were signed as accurate.

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3. Matters arising

No discussion.

4. UK Legislative Matters

A. Position reports:

No discussion.

B. Current consultations

a. compulsory seat belt requirements for children
The secretary said that he had obtained confirmation that the proposed changes to legislation on requirements for the wearing of seatbelts would have only one effect on the position of those whose vehicles lacked seat belts, and that was that the legislation proposed that children under 3 could not be carried in any vehicle unless restrained in a suitable child restraint. The consultation reflected the provisions of EU Directive 2003/20/EC, and this provision was thus not negotiable. Although the wording of the consultation could be interpreted otherwise, the secretary had obtained confirmation that the position for the carriage of children aged 3 and over in vehicles without seat belts would be unchanged. There were some expressions of regret that this piece of legislation would prevent families with infants using historic cars en famille, but it was agreed to make no protest on that point as UK had already made a commitment to introduce such legislation and the numbers potentially affected would be small given the large number of families who take a modern tender car to events. It was agreed that the secretary’s response should highlight the need for regulation to be clear about the position of those using vehicles made between 1965 and 1987 which have seat belts fitted only in the front. DH; JW

b. retro-reflective conspicuity markings for heavy vehicles
It was understood that this proposal would relate only to new vehicles. It was agreed that no action was necessary.

c. fitment of devices for indirect vision (mirrors) on motor vehicles
The secretary said he had checked with the Department for Transport and could confirm that there was no proposal to introduce retrospective legislation to require older cars or motorcycles to fit additional mirrors. There was an implication that an extra (nearside) mirror may be required for commercial vehicles made between 1958 and 1978. David Hurley said he was still analysing the implications for historic commercial vehicles. It was agreed that FBHVC should respond highlighting the need to maintain the principle that there should be no retrospective Construction & Use Regulations. DH, JW

C. Other Matters

The secretary confirmed that he had been approached by the Home Office who had outlined their plans for a consultation on whether or not to extend the provisions of the Kent Act nationwide. The approach had simply been to ask if FBHVC wished to comment on the proposed mechanism for the consultation. The secretary said he had suggested that the consultation should consider the definitions of terms such as “trader” and “second-hand” as these were loosely worded in the Kent Act, yet were essential for the fair application of the legislation.

5. All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group

Geoff Smith confirmed he had been promised a date for a liaison meeting in October.
Greg Knight and Kelvin Hopkins would be attending the meeting at Beaulieu.

6. European Report

Jacqueline Bickerstaff warned that FBHVC risked alienating the motor cycle movement in UK if it did not oppose the proposals for motorcycle licensing contained in the Driving Licence Directive. Geoff Smith made the point that the proposals would not have a direct adverse effect on the historic vehicle movement and this made it difficult for FIVA (or FBHVC) to lobby against the proposals in the directive.

7. DVLA

Sandy Hamilton said he and the secretary had been to DVLA recently for a routine liaison meeting. There were no new issues to report, but it was understood that the results of the 2004 “fee consultation” (currently with Ministers) might be announced in the autumn.

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8. Implementation of measures in Vision 2005-10

David Hurley reminded the meeting of the recent agreement to a plan for the next five years entitled “Vision 2005-10” in which (amongst other things) it was proposed that the legislation committee should formalise its monitoring and record keeping. There was a brief discussion about monitoring government web sites and it was agreed as a preliminary move that websites would be covered as listed below. The aim should be to monitor at least once a month, and to report by e-mail to the secretary when a site had been checked for new material, even if there were no relevant new items for FBHVC to consider. It was agreed that a review of monitoring should be a regular agenda item.

Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency http://www.dvla.gov.uk/ Sandy Hamilton
Department for Transport http://www.dft.gov.uk/ David Hurley
Vehicle and Operator Services Agency http://www.vosa.gov.uk/ David Hurley
Health and Safety Executive http://www.hse.gov.uk/ David Davies*
Department for the Environment, Food & Rural Affairs http://www.defra.gov.uk/ Peter Mead
Driver Standards Agency http://www.dsa.gov.uk/ Jacqueline Bickerstaff
Government Consultation site http://www.consultations.gov.uk/ David Hurley
As noted
* subject to David Davies’ agreement

9. Other matters

In view of the travel arrangements for the FIVA General Assembly, it was agreed to change the date of the next meeting from 26 October to 1 November (a Tuesday). All

10. September/October Newsletter

No discussion, other than to confirm that the deadline was 14 September and that contents would be as usual.

……………………………………………… Chairman Jim Whyman, Secretary.