8 NOVEMBER 2006
Those present: David Hurley (in the chair); Jacqueline Bickerstaff; John Billard; Andrew Burt; David Davies; Sandy Hamilton; Peter Mead; Rosy Pugh (taking minutes); Geoff Smith.
Apologies for absence: Peter Henley; Matt Vincent and Jim Whyman.
1. Minutes of the meeting of 23 August 2006
The minutes of the meeting of 23 August were approved for signature at the next meeting.
2. Matters arising not included on the agenda
3. B. c. Other consultations, Health and Safety executive, EU Directive 2006/15 Details of a consultation was circulated to clubs likely to have members vehicles running on methanol fuels. Acknowledgements received from VSCC, VMCC and Historic Grand Prix Drivers Association, but no further feedback, so no submission was made in reply to the consultation.
5. a. European Report, Daytime Running Lights The secretary had spoken to Andrew Turner and sent him a draft of the consultation response. FIVA's response was similar. The secretary is awaiting feedback from Andrew Turner before sending the approved response.
5. c. European Report, other matters, Drivers Code Done as described.
3. UK Legislative Matters
A. Post consultation position reports:
a. Measures to enforce insurance “from the record” Bill progressing through Parliament. If vehicles are insured there should be no problems for owners. [Note: The Road Safety Bill received Royal Assent on 8 Nov]
b. Improving access to public transport for the disabled David Hurley had discussed this with Greg Knight, who had raised the subject with Dr Ladyman. Dr Ladyman had replied giving contacts in DfT and the disabled discrimination body. David Hurley was awaiting response regarding restricted use PSV vehicles, and was hopeful that the rule may be relaxed, although it might take some time. Ongoing. DH
c. Transposing EU Directive 2004/42/CE (VOC) into UK law DEFRA’s consultants had been in touch with the secretary three times in the past three weeks and a consultation on how to license non-compliant products expected soon. The general ban on placing non-compliant products on the market comes into force on 1 January 2007, but it seems that product already made and in the supply chain can continue to be sold. JW
d. MoT testing for fire appliances Ongoing. DH
e. Waste framework directive New regulations were published in summer 2006, but are hidden under other names - nothing changes the right of farmers to keep old machinery provided they do so in an environmentally acceptable way - a plough dumped in a hedge would be OK, but a tractor dripping oil and fuel would not be. Concluded
f. Testing requirements for new drivers of large vehicles Ongoing.
g. Operator Licensing consultation This consultation closed on 31/3/2006 and according to their timetable, the Analysis of responses and decision should have been made by April 2006. DH phoned VOSA enquiring what had been decided and asked for a copy of the summary of responses. A very brusque person stated that until they got a response from the Minister they would not issue the normal feedback. His intention was to issue this after implementation. DH to write to VOSA (after liaison with JW). DH
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3. UK Legislative Matters A. Post consultation position reports (contd)
h. Highway Code The DSA team have seen the final version of the FIVA Guide for Users of Older Vehicles and the acknowledgement included: ‘the amusing caricatures enhance and reinforce the messages very well indeed. I will keep a copy on file and will make sure my colleagues and those at the Department for Transport receive a copy of your PDF for information’.
j. proposed changes to the on-road and off-road motor event regulations No further news. DH, JW
k. Revisions to MoT Inspection Manual - testing of number plates FBHVC submission sent.
l. DVLA consultation on fee proposals No further progress. Ongoing.
m. DVLA consultation on registration transfers FBHVC submission sent.
n. MoT fee consultation Fees now implemented. A personal reply to FBHVC consultation response had been received from Dr Ladyman following FBHVC’s concern at the short consultation period and the survey regarding the amount of time allowed for tests. David Hurley to write to DfT with a request under the Freedom of Information Act regarding details of the survey on which the increase in fees had been based. The copy of the schedule of responses to the consultation showed there had been just 11 replies. DH
David Hurley to write to DfT responding to answers given on schedule of responses and expressing FBHVC’s lack of confidence in the consultation process. DH
o. Consultation on interoperability of electronic toll collection systems FBHVC submission sent and acknowledged with thanks. Concerns had been expressed that older vehicles may not have suitable electrical system to power the devices necessary to allow electronic toll collection, nor even a windscreen to which to attach them.
The meeting considered that it would be helpful to all concerned if FBHVC offered technical advice on alternatives for payment collection, how to combat theft of electronic devices, anti-tamper measures etc. DHB. Current consultations
a. Consultation on licensing for in-vehicle information systems (8/1/07) Relevant to historic movement as some sat. nav. systems used by members on rallies.
b. DSA service improvements, safety related measures and general fee increases (11/1/07) In hand. DH, JW
c. Legislation changes to comply with European regulations on drivers’ hours (17/1/07) In hand. DH, JW
Nothing reported from HSE, DEFRA, DVLA.
C. Other Matters
a. Occasional sales No further news - reappraise at next meeting.
b. Highways Agency and police action re. old vehicles on M6 and A69 No response received from clubs yet. No prosecution was made as a result of the M6 case. Technically however, this conduct did breach the Driver’s Code [which code?...].
c. Other - Insurance write offs Do regulations actually require that the worst kinds of accident damaged vehicles be destroyed? A case was reported where a Model T Ford was classed a category A write off. The insurers were (initially) willing to sell the salvage back to the owner, but have now refused to do so saying that in law the remains of category A write offs must be destroyed.
Sandy Hamilton responded that this is insurers’ wishes not DVLA and not mandated by law. An appeal is always possible. Category A write-offs are insisted upon if flood or fire damage make toxicity an issue (but this could be decided by individual repairers); Category B write-offs can be used for spares, not crushed; Category C - non-economic repairs - do have log book endorsed but are not destroyed; Category D - not endorsed (usually ‘stolen recovered’).
The meeting requested that David Hurley open a dialogue with the ABI, which could be advertised as another FBHVC member benefit. DH
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4. All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group
Currently awaiting date for Culture meeting as well as general meeting. Discussion points to include definitions of ‘historic’ date, which should not be stuck at 1972. A definition does appear in the Drivers Hours legislation of 25 years old, i.e. rolling. UK is unusual in not having a rolling qualifying date.
5. European Report
a. Consultation on End of Life Vehicle Directive re. amending exemptions for heavy metals EPPA report for October noted.
b. Daytime Running Lights All to make their comments on the consultation response known to the secretary with delay. All
c. Definition of ‘historically correct condition’ FBVHC would want only criterion of this to be age. However, the situation with replica vehicles using donor cars clouds the issue. It should not be forgotten that eventually replica vehicles will be historic in their own right. Ongoing.
d. FIVA General Assembly David Davies’ report that he had not been re-elected to the FIVA board was noted. Geoff Smith suggested that FBHVC should get its own link with the UN and agreed to ask Greg Knight for assistance. GS
Legislation was the main reason to pay the subscription to FIVA. Geoff Smith, Andrew Burt and David Davies to meet again, week beginning 6 November to formulate plan to increase UK representation at FIVA.. GS, AB, DD
It should be noted that there are no plans to withdraw from FIVA, as it is important to be a member for purposes of negotiating with EU and FIVA is still well respected. The UK subscription amount would not be sufficient to cover the cost of Andrew Turner’s work.
Geoff Smith recommended that the FIVA president and the chairman of the FIVA legislation commission should be challenged/questioned about work promised and outstanding.
Andrew Burt recommended an international working group to provide a forum for new people to see how the FBHVC and FIVA work.
David Hurley thanked Geoff Smith, David Davies and Andrew Burt for their persistence and commitment and agreed to write to both the president and the legislation commission, on behalf of the FBHVC, to complain about the lack of action, especially regarding legislation. This to be an open letter for circulation and intended to start debate. David Hurley confirmed that he had not received any reports from FIVA over the last year, only EPPA reports. DH
6. DVLA
A meeting arranged for 20 November. David Hurley to contact Sandy Hamilton with items to be included on agenda. DH, AH
Sandy Hamilton reported a useful trip to the NEC classic car show, where many FBHVC logos were on display on club stands. He met DVLA representatives at the show also and had useful dialogue.
A reminder had gone into the next newsletter about the advisability of checking whether a vehicle was on the DVLA database before going down the V765 route.
A short article on cherished number plates was drafted for insertion at proof stage into the next newsletter. JW
a. Meeting datesDates circulated by the secretary were discussed. David Davies offered the use of the Burton on Trent premises if it was felt that the MSA venue was to be changed. The latter being available for a relatively short period of time, making it difficult to finish an agenda. Some corrections also noted: ‘January 07’ should be ‘January 08’
Legislation meeting on Wednesday 19 January 08, should be 9 January. JW…/4
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7. Other business (contd)
b. Legislation meeting venue
David Hurley wished to formally thank the TR Register for the continued use of their premises. DH
c. Research project
Geoff Smith reported that no further research was planned by FIVA, and requested that FBHVC should consider funding this. To be discussed at the main committee meeting. JW
d. Trade liaison
Geoff Smith said that the biggest weakness shown up by the research project was the lack of knowledge about traders, and an FBHVC committee member with this portfolio would address this. To be discussed at the main committee meeting JW
e. Chambers of Commerce
Geoff Smith informed the meeting that Chambers of Commerce have funds for research, which could be of benefit.
8. November/December Newsletter
Already closed.
……………………………………………… Chairman Jim Whyman, Secretary.