MINUTES OF THE SIXTY FIRST LEGISLATION SUB-COMMITTEE MEETING
HELD AT THE TR REGISTER OFFICE, HAWKSWORTH, DIDCOT ON 21 FEBRUARY 2007Those present: David Hurley (in the chair); Jacqueline Bickerstaff; John Billard; Andrew Burt; David Davies; Sandy Hamilton; Eri Heilijgers; Peter Mead; Rosy Pugh; Geoff Smith; Jim Whyman (secretary).
Apologies for absence: Matt Vincent.
David Hurley welcomed Eri Heilijgers to the team: Eri would primarily be working to enhance FBHVC’s heritage and cultural credentials with a view to leading similar work in FIVA.1. Minutes of the meeting of 10 January 2007
The minutes of the meeting of 10 January were approved and signed.
2. Matters arising not included on the agenda
None
3. UK Legislative Matters
A. Post consultation position reports:
a. Measures to enforce insurance “from the record” No consultation on implementing the continuous insurance provisions of the Road Safety Act (2007) had yet been published: the delay may have been caused by the recent reports indicating that the number of unregistered vehicles on the road had actually increased, despite - or possibly because of - the introduction of SORN.
b. Improving access to public transport for the disabled No developments.
c. Transposing EU Directive 2004/42/CE (VOC) into UK law Consultation still awaited. JW
d. MoT testing for fire appliances Two engines had been taken for test to VOSA testing stations and had been turned away as “untestable”. Owners were renewing their VED discs on the basis that testing was not required, despite the amendment to regulations limiting exemption from testing to machines in service. David Hurley commented that the Fire Service Preservation Group had asked him not to pursue this issue: the meeting was happy to let the matter drop, but felt it important that FSPG should confirm their position in writing. David Hurley agreed to write accordingly. DH
e. Testing requirements for new drivers of large vehicles There had (as yet) been no response to FBHVC’s submission reported at 3.B.a. of the minutes of the previous meeting.
f. Operator Licensing consultation David Hurley reported on a conversation he had had with DfT officials indicating that DfT was not going to impose operator licensing fees on private buses and coaches, but would be doing so on all classes of lorry in need of testing - they claimed that they had no means of differentiating between private and commercial lorries. Given that pre-1960 lorries were exempt from the plating requirements anyway, there was a feeling that this might be an acceptable compromise, but David Hurley said he would contact the lorry clubs to see if they felt FBHVC should take the issue further. DH
g. proposed changes to the on-road and off-road motor event regulations No further news. JW
h. DVLA consultation on fee proposals No further news.
j. DVLA consultation on registration transfers No further news.
k. MoT fee consultation David Hurley said he had made an informal request for the information he wanted, and said that if it was not forthcoming, he would make a formal request under the Freedom of Information Act. DH
… /2
- 2 -
3. UK Legislative Matters (contd)
l. Consultation on interoperability of electronic toll collection systems There had been no further news from government, but (ignoring any general road pricing proposals) it was understood that there were no plans to make any toll system totally automated, so there would always be the option of manual payment.
m. Consultation on licensing for in-vehicle information systems No further news.
n. DSA service improvements No further news.
o. VOSA fees and minor changes to MoT testing No further news.
p. Legislative changes to comply with European regulations on drivers’ hours David Hurley reported on the very swift and satisfactory DfT reaction to the case made for simplifying the definition of an historic vehicle for the purposes of an exemption from drivers’ hours regulations. John Billard commented that although the removal of the current exemption for modern privately operated goods vehicles would be an inconvenience, NTET accepted the situation.
q. Low Emission Zone for London - draft “scheme order” David Hurley said FBHVC had submitted a response to the consultation on the “scheme order” that would bring the London Low Emission Zone into operation in 2008. The original consultation had proposed a rolling 25 year cut off, but the scheme order included a fixed pre-1973 date. David reported a TfL official as saying that if the pre-1973 date is unacceptable, the historic vehicle movement would have to manage without any exemption.
B. Current consultations
a. Draft regulations for emissions and speed limiter requirements (10/04) David Hurley agreed to check this consultation that appeared to relate only to modern vehicles for possible historic vehicle implications. DH
b. Tachographs - data downloading and record retention (12/04) Again, David Hurley agreed to check for any hidden difficulties within this consultation that was clearly aimed at modern commercially operated vehicles. DH
c. International co-operation on Driving Disqualifications (8/05) It was considered unlikely that this recently received consultation would have any special bearing on the historic vehicle movement, but the secretary said he would read it to make sure. JW
No other new consultations had been received at the time of the meeting.
C. Other Matters
a. Possible Kent Act extension The secretary said that Classic Car Weekly had included an item suggesting that an unspecified Bill in parliament would see the provisions of the Kent Act extended nationwide. He had been unable to find such a Bill, but had been advised that it was the London Local Authorities Bill which he believed had timed-out in the last session of Parliament, as had the Occasional Sales Bill. [Subsequent research shows the London Local Authorities Bill is still active and in the House of Lords, but its scope seems to be limited to the area under the control of the Greater London Authority.] JW
… /3
- 3 -
4. Proposed changes to Europeran fuel standards
The secretary said he had copied the recent EU consultation on fuel standards to Matt Vincent who had commented that the proposed new standards for bio-petrol should make little difference to conventional petrol. The bio-fuel was likely to provide vaporisation problems in older vehicles, but while conventional petrol continued on sale, this would not matter. The consultation made no suggestion of a move to bio-fuel only. The specification of diesel had also been changed with a reduction in the permitted amounts of sulphur and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Matt felt this would make no difference to the efficacy of the fuel as the sulphur and PAH were residual impurities making no contribution to the thermal properties of the fuel, but could trigger another round of the problems associated with seals that had been experienced when low sulphur diesel was first introduced - the seals become accustomed to one standard of fuel then swell or shrink when exposed to fuel of a different specification.
5. All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group
Geoff Smith outlined discussion at a recent meeting of the APPHVG which had been attended by five parliamentarians, Andrew Burt, David Hurley and himself.
Greg Knight had agreed to seek out a possible link to the United Nations as a second string to FIVA’s efforts to start dialogue with UN.
The meeting had agreed to improve links with UK MEPs - Greg Knight would write to Tory MEPs, Kelvin Hopkins to Labour to introduce FBHVC, and it would then be up to FBHVC to follow up.
The subject of the need to get the date for VED exemption on to a rolling basis again was discussed, but there was apparently little enthusiasm for tackling the Treasury. It was felt important to assess what happens in other countries and make further representations accordingly.
A meeting with the heritage minister had again been requested.
Greg Knight would be attending the Beaulieu meeting again, and would seek to bring a minister, a transport-minded MEP or someone from the culture/heritage department.
6. European matters
Andrew Burt said he had attended a meeting of FIVA’s heritage commission the previous week, and had been pleased to note that the Drive It Day concept had been taken up in two or three other countries, where links were being made between the old vehicle movement and national static heritage, such as chateaux.
New “environmental zones” were to be introduced in Germany later in 2007 or early in 2008. There was huge variation in approach as a result of the power to impose such zones being delegated to the 16 different states within Germany. The secretary commented that an article in Practical Classics, suggesting that Edinburgh was about to follow the example of Stuttgart and ban pre-cat cars, had been shown to be without any basis.
David Davies remarked that he had heard that motorcyclists were being required to carry “environmental mats” to catch oil leaks from parked machines at certain events.
7. DVLA
Sandy Hamilton said there was little to report, although it was noteworthy that DVLA was now offering a facility for renewal of VED disc by phone and he had been alerted to ongoing problems with entitlements “dropping off” when replacement licences were obtained, indicating that the problem reported some meetings previously was more widespread than DVLA had suggested.
8. Other business
Andrew Burt handed round a report [attached as annex] on a meeting he and Geoff Smith had had the previous day with Marco Gasparinetti of the Clean Air and Transport section of the Environment directorate of the EC. He and Geoff considered the meeting to have been of great value as Mr Gasparinetti had accepted the findings of the research undertaken in 2006. If historic vehicle usage remained at or below its current 0.1% of circulation, it was unlikely to suffer from environmental legislation in the short term. In the longer term, when larger pollution targets had been tackled, there was a risk that legislators would turn their attention again to historic vehicles, but that risk would be mitigated if the historic vehicle movement manages effective self-regulation.
… /4
- 4 -
8. Other business (contd)
Sandy Hamilton had heard reports that historic vehicles were required to be fitted with winter tyres in Germany - Peter Mead confirmed that in some parts of Germany, winter tyres were a legal requirement for all vehicles. Sandy also commented that he had heard that the RAC European rescue service was not as good as it once was, a point echoed by Rosy Pugh.
9. March/April Newsletter
The contents of the next newsletter were discussed briefly and the closing date was noted as Monday 12 March.
……………………………………………… Chairman Jim Whyman,
Secretary.
Next meetings: All Wednesdays at TR Register HQ -
25 April; 27 June; 22 August; 31 October; 9 January 08; 27 February 08
AnnexNotes of meeting with the Environment Directorate General of the European Commission, Tuesday 20 Feb 2007.
Geoff Smith (GS) and Andrew Burt (AB) were received by Marco Gasparinetti (MG) of the Clean Air and Transport section of DG Environment, European Commission.
The delegation explained that although the meeting had been arranged at the instigation of FBHVC, GS and AB also represented FIVA as Research Project Director and Vice-President, Planning, respectively, in addition to their FBHVC capacities as V-P and Chairman.
MG clearly recalled the previous meeting two years before when his concerns had centred round the lack of hard evidence about the extent of the historic vehicle movement and the level of use of the vehicles.
He had clearly read the survey report and had referred to other published sources for background information.
He complimented the survey team on the work done which now established a clear picture of the movement and established a good statistical base for future discussion.
MG sought clarification of the sources and/or statistical basis of certain figures and the delegation provided explanations or background information which MG found helpful.
There was some discussion about the effect of the 25 year basis of the definition of “Historic Vehicle”. MG pointed out that had the 25 year rule applied at the time of the foundation of FIVA in the mid-60s, “historic” would effectively have meant pre-war. Applying the same rule now means up to 1980. This group includes not only many more vehicles but also many which are heavy polluters in the view of EC.
In terms of the current “historic” car park, DG En has some sympathy for vehicles up to the end of the 1960s but after that their support diminishes.
The EC view is that pollution is now the biggest killer in Europe. It is claimed that it kills 5 times more people than road deaths.
In the opinion of DG En, older generation diesel vehicles are the worst offenders. They therefore support initiatives to prevent the use of older commercial vehicles in LEZs as the measure likely to produce the greatest effect whilst impacting on the lowest number of people and vehicles.
They see this as a perfect example of the EC doctrine of “proportionality”, where the measures taken must be proportionate to the problem but not disproportionate in their impact. AB and MG agreed that this was similar in effect to the Pareto Principle, which states that 80% of the result is achieved by 20% of the effort, the question being whether the achievement of the remaining 20% was worth the expenditure of the 80% of resources. Both agreed that this principle could work to the advantage of the historic vehicle movement.
On the basis if the survey results, it was entirely clear that the usage of historic vehicles fell squarely in to “last 20%” category. The circulation figure of 0.08% was seen as very reassuring from the environmental point of view.
DG En had not so far given formal advice on the subject but, if asked, would probably not now regard the banning of historic vehicles as something which would make any significant contribution to improving pollution levels, given the information now available.
The only exception to this would be older heavy vehicles particularly diesels which fell within the “80%” category and for which MG said that DG En had “zero sympathy”!
It was noted that in countries where Low Emission Zones were in force, exemptions were regularly granted for events involving historic vehicles (cf. Italy) and in some cases exempted altogether.
MG reminded the meeting that LEZs could only be applied on a local basis and that no national bans could be applied.
Neither could bans be applied in a way which amounted to discrimination in favour the nationals of one country or interfered with the freedom of movement. In this regard reference was made to the Commission v Austria, in which the European Court had overturned a proposed ban on heavy vehicles which favoured the use of Austrian vehicles. The principle of proportionality had been a fact in this decision.
However, MG reminded the meeting that heavy vehicles remained the primary target. Others would be dealt with later but it was not for the Commission to tell member states or local government how to achieve this.
They will give advice if asked and in this context they are pleased now to have available the definitive information contained in the FIVA European and National surveys.
It was noted that the Commission was not always aware of asked for advice on individual LEZ proposals. They required to be informed about national permanent initiatives but not about temporary or local environmental measures.
On the subject of emissions, MG indicated that Euro 3 would become the future benchmark. The first stage would generally to ban or limit the use within LEZs of vehicles subject to Euro1. This would then be extended to vehicles subject to Euro 2.
MG drew a distinction between pre-Euro1 historic vehicles and vehicle which were subject to Euro 1,2,etc.
The intention was not to ban any vehicles from the road or from general use but from only form circulation within and subject to the conditions of the LEZs.
On the subject of testing, MG indicated that there was little immediate benefit to be obtained from establishing the emission levels of the current historic vehicle park. It was, in his view, self evident that they polluted more than the likely future benchmarks and that given the evidence on low usage, there would therefore be little potential benefit in knowing by how much.
This may become more relevant once inroads are made into the “20%”, at which point it could become necessary to distinguish between various types of historic vehicle. It could be useful however for the movement to prepare itself for this possibility. AB & GS suggested that the establishment of a testing protocol would be a suitable starting point. MG reminded the meeting that a new Directive was in train redefining the pollutants of greatest concern. This would include a number of heavy metals. The primary concern for the Commission at this time remained the control of CO2 emissions.
Applying the “proportionality” or “Pareto” principles, the meeting concluded that the best position for the historic vehicle movement would be obtained through self-regulation of the historic vehicle park to limit the inevitable expansion which would result from increasing numbers of potentially polluting vehicles each year and from containing usage to something around its present levels.
Best results for least cost/effort was likely to result from extending the historic vehicle definition progressively from 25 to 30 years over a five year transition period and by monitoring usage levels to see if they remained at around their present acceptable level of around 0.1%. If the figure got much above this, DG En would find it more difficult to accept and to support the proportionality argument.
It was agreed that the meeting had been extremely useful for both sides and it was agreed that further meetings should take place from time to time to keep the Directorate up to date with developments in the historic vehicle movement on environmental issues.
Key points arising:
• FIVA Survey provides invaluable information to base constructive debate.
• Self-regulation of the historic vehicle park was key to maintaining proportionality position – move to 30 yr definition.
• Usage benchmark 0.1%.
• Prepare for Euro 3 emissions benchmark.
• AB & GS to maintain contact with MG.