MINUTES OF THE SIXTY THIRD LEGISLATION SUB-COMMITTEE MEETING HELD AT THE TR REGISTER OFFICE, HAWKSWORTH, DIDCOT ON 22 AUGUST 2007
Those present:
Usual legislation team: David Hurley (in the chair); Jacqueline Bickerstaff; David Davies; Sandy Hamilton; Eri Heilijgers; Rosy Pugh; Geoff Smith; Jim Whyman (secretary).Visiting FBHVC Committee: Tony Beadle; Julian Ghosh; Mike Young.
Guests: Tony Davies; Nigel Harrison; Chris Hunt Cooke.
Apologies for absence: Legislation team: Andrew Burt; John Billard.
Committee: Lord Montagu; Colin Francis.Welcoming all to the meeting, David Hurley said he planned to go through the usual legislation committee agenda first to give visiting members of the main committee and guests a flavour of the kind of work the legislation team undertakes. There would then be an opportunity for everyone to introduce themselves and raise questions in general about the operation of the FBHVC before members of the main committee consider further the matter of nominations for chairman and deputy chairman, outstanding from their last meeting.
1. Minutes of the meeting of 25 April 2007
David Hurley reminded those present that the meeting scheduled for 27 June had been set aside when a liaison meeting with the All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group had been called at short notice. It had been decided not to replace the meeting when it was realised the business was mainly a matter of reporting - something that had been done by e-mail.
The minutes of the meeting of 25 April were approved and signed.
2. Matters arising not included on the agenda
None.
3. UK Legislative Matters
A. Post consultation position reports:
a. Measures to enforce insurance “from the record” No developments.
b. Improving access to public transport for the disabled No developments. David Hurley explained that regulations coming into force in 2010 would prevent vehicles lacking wheel-chair access facilities from being certified as public service vehicles. This would have the effect of closing heritage bus and coach services. David said he was exploring with relevant ministry officials ways in which heritage vehicles might be exempted from these provisions without opening an avenue for exploitation by commercial operators. DH
c. Transposing EU Directive 2004/42/CE (VOC) into UK law Consultation still awaited - the secretary said he had received an e-mail from Ian Oldfield at DEFRA confirming that the consultation had been drafted and was with ministers awaiting approval. JW
d. MoT testing for fire appliances The Fire Service Preservation Society had agreed this issue should not be pursued. It was agreed to drop this item from future agendas.
e. Proposed changes to the on-road and off-road motor event regulations No further news. The secretary explained that this was not really of concern as the proposal had simply been to consolidate, and bring up to date, two existing regulations - there had been no suggestion of making any significant change. JW
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f. DVLA consultation on fee proposals No further news. The secretary explained this was a routine consultation on a proposal to increase by a modest amount the fee payable when seeking details of the registered keeper of a vehicle (perhaps following an accident). It was agreed to drop this item from future agendas.
g. Consultation on interoperability of electronic toll collection systems No further news. It was agreed to drop this item from future agendas.
h. Consultation on licensing for in-vehicle information systems As item g, above.
j. Legislative changes to comply with European regulations on drivers’ hours David Hurley said that regulations excluding historic vehicles from the tachograph and drivers’ hours regulations had been introduced, using, as promised, a simple definition of historic vehicles as being those over 25 years old and not used commercially. This topic was thus closed - with a very satisfactory result.
k. Low Emission Zone for London - draft “scheme order” The LEZ scheme order had been approved as drafted, leaving owners of post-1973 commercial vehicles faced with the need either to spend thousands of pounds upgrading their vehicles to comply with modern emission standards or to pay a fee of either £200 or £100 (depending on vehicle size) in order to drive within the Greater London Authority Area. David commented that FBHVC would go back to Transport for London to push for a rolling date for the exemption once the scheme was running. DH
The secretary said he had had a response to his enquiry to TfL (reported in the recent newsletter) about the need to register exempt vehicles. TfL stated that their register is pre-populated with data from the DVLA records, and there is only need to make an individual application if a vehicle is not on those records (i.e. registered elsewhere) or is of a type that would normally be chargeable (post-1973) but is exempt for some other reason, such as having been modified to comply with latest emission standards.l. Consultation on Class VL weight limit and future equipment strategy for VTS The secretary reported he had responded to the future equipment strategy element of the consultation (which related primarily to automated testing lanes - ATL) commenting that it was essential always to retain facilities for testing vehicles outside ATL. The response (which had been acknowledged) said FBHVC would be very concerned if there was ever a move towards compulsory ATL testing, and pointed out that the stresses imposed by such lanes could be damaging to early cars, especially those with wooden spoked wheels, that were never designed to withstand such treatment.
m. MoT Guide 6th Edition Section N The secretary confirmed that this had no relevance to FBHVC. Section N relates only to contingency procedures to be adopted in the event of computer failure. It was agreed to drop this item from future agendas.
B. Current consultations (closing date day/month)a. consultation on changes to the Regulation of Number Plate Supply in UK (25/9) Sandy Hamilton said he had yet to draft a response to this consultation, but explained that it was a simple proposal to block up loop-holes in the regulations governing the registration of number plate suppliers. It would require those based in Scotland and N Ireland to comply with the same rules as those in England and Wales and put an end to those seeking to circumvent the number-plate supplier registration requirements by making “show plates”. Sandy said he would draft a response and circulate it to David Hurley, Nigel Harrison and the secretary for comment in good time. He said he would weave in to his response a further appeal to lift the font restriction on replacement plates for 1973-2003 vehicles. SH
b. Emissions Related Congestion Charging proposal (19/10) Transport for London had published proposals to link the central London congestion charge to vehicle emissions. The consultation, published during August, proposes to set a higher level of charge (£25 against the normal £8) for vehicles either emitting more than 225g CO2 per km (if type approved after 1 March 2001) or of over 3-litres capacity (if type approved earlier). The secretary commented that this effectively meant an exemption for all historic vehicles, as type approval requirements did not begin in the UK until the early 1980s. The meeting considered this more likely to be an oversight rather than a deliberate means of exempting historic vehicles. David Hurley said he had yet to study the proposals in detail, but felt it unlikely that FBHVC could do more than seek a concession that historic vehicles should be charged at the lower rate, whatever their capacity. JW; DH
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c. Driver Certificate of Professional Competence - Further Implementation (31/10) David Hurley said that this new Driving Standards Agency consultation had only been published a few days prior to the meeting and he had yet to understand the full implications. He explained that FBHVC was concerned that those seeking the relevant licence to drive historic commercial vehicles could be required to study details required for professional drivers (such as a knowledge of drivers hours requirements, tachograph operation etc.) and learn to drive vehicles that were irrelevant to the type of vehicles they wished to drive. This was felt to be a deterrent to younger enthusiasts for historic commercial vehicles, and David said FBHVC would respond accordingly. DH
C. Other matters
a. Off Road Vehicle (Registration) Bill The secretary read an extract from the Hansard record of the Public Bill Committee session for 11 July in which Graham Stringer MP moved an adjournment on the basis that he would “go to the Table of the House and withdraw the Bill.” This followed an assurance given by the new Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport, Jim Fitzpatrick, that government would undertake a root-and-branch review of current legislation to see how best to tackle the nuisance caused by anti-social use of unregistered machines. JW
b. No smoking notices for buses and coaches The ban on smoking in enclosed public places that had come in to force on 1 July also covered some vehicles. A vehicle is deemed “smoke-free” if “… it is used (a) by members of the public, or a section of the public (whether or not for reward or hire): or (b) in the course of paid or voluntary work by more than one person”. Historic coaches and buses used occasionally to give rides to members of the public are thus “smoke-free”. This introduces a problem for owners of such vehicles because parallel regulations require all smoke-free vehicles to display the regulation no-smoking symbol in each compartment. David Hurley said he had made some further enquiries about the detail of this requirement and was awaiting an answer, but it was felt likely that the statutory signs would be compulsory in addition to any period “no smoking” notices that may already be displayed. DH
c. PFOS in chrome plating industry The secretary reported on the conflicting pressures within government on the implementation in UK of a directive limiting the use of perfluorooctane sulfonate (PFOS) as a spray suppressant in the chromium plating industry. DEFRA was keen to limit the use of PFOS as much as possible to protect the environment against the possibility that PFOS might, one day, be shown to be dangerous to the environment, whilst the Health and Safety Executive was keen that it should be used as it provided excellent protection for workers in the chroming industry against known carcinogens that - without the spray suppressant - could easily be inhaled. H & S E had sought further information on assurances FIVA had obtained from the European Commission (and reported in FBHVC’s Newsletter) that the process for plating vehicle components should be exempt.
d. National Car Parks problem The secretary said he had written to the Chief Executive of National Car Parks following a substantiated report of NCP staff, working under contract to DVLA, clamping an untaxed car that was awaiting restoration and was parked legally on private land. The owner had persuaded NCP that a mistake had been made and the clamp removed, but this did not prevent NCP’s lifter truck seeking to remove the vehicle to a pound. The letter asked NCP to confirm that staff are properly briefed about the situations in which they may clamp un-taxed vehicles and that they are not given any financial incentives related to the number of vehicles clamped. This letter had been copied to Greg Knight and Clive Bennett, Chief Executive at DVLA. The Chief Executive of NCP had acknowledged a follow up letter from Greg Knight, passing the buck to a colleague, but had not yet responded to FBHVC. JW
4. All Party Parliamentary Historic Vehicle Group
The meeting of APPHVG had been reported at the main committee meeting in July. Subsequent to that meeting Greg Knight had suggested some possible political activity at Beaulieu, such as giving visitors to the FBHVC stand a pro-forma letter asking their MP to join the APPHVG. It had been felt this would be counter productive. Greg would nonetheless be coming to Beaulieu. No date had yet been set for the next meeting.
5. European matters
There would be a meeting of the FIVA legislation committee in Malmo at the end of August. Andrew Burt, David Davies and Eri Heilijgers would be attending. A general briefing note about the situation in UK had been drafted and was handed round for comment. David Davies said he would circulate the final version to all concerned.
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A routine liaison meeting had taken place on 17 May, attended by Sandy Hamilton, Nigel Harrison and the secretary. Sandy Hamilton outlined the results of that meeting, reported on subsequent staff and location changes, and detailed a couple of recent cases where he had been asked to assist.
The secretary said that there were some obvious loopholes in the system for the issue of age related numbers and the re-issue of lost numbers and (after consultation with Sandy) he had written to DVLA suggesting as review of procedures to restore the integrity of the system.
7. Other business
None.
8. Sep/Oct Newsletter
The closing date was noted as Monday 10 September.
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The chairman closed the routine legislation committee meeting before inviting all present to introduce themselves, outline their interests and to enable the guests who were considering taking positions within FBHVC to ask questions and be questioned.
Tony Davies (Cheltenham), a Chartered Engineer, is a retired civil servant with a technical and strategy background whose professional career was at GCHQ. He has been a director, Vice Chairman and Chairman of the Civil Service Motoring Association, an organisation with a 400,000 membership and multi-million turnover. He is a member of the Lancia Motor Club, Historic Rally Car Register and Classic Rally Association and is active in historic rallying, usually as a navigator. He is interested in standing for election for the position of director responsible for relations with traders.
Nigel Harrison (Chester) is a retired engineer with a strong interest in Morris vehicles. He is a member of the Morris Minor Owners Club and is chairman of the Morris Commercial Club. He has been understudying Sandy Hamilton’s work liaising with DVLA with a view to taking over Sandy’s role in the fullness of time.
Chris Hunt Cooke (Welwyn), a Chartered Accountant, was financial controller of a FTSE 100 listed company. Following early retirement some years ago, he had re-kindled his interest in motoring and is a member of the MG Car Club and the Historic Rally Car Register. He had been Treasurer of HRCR, and a trustee of the trust owning the MG Car Club's office building. He had relinquished both positions recently, only to be asked to become chairman of HRCR and to become a director of the MGCC. He is a magistrate, serving on the Magistrates’ Association’s National Council and is a member of their Road Traffic Committee.
After the guests and Julian Ghosh had departed, those remaining discussed the decision taken at the Colnbrook committee meeting in July that Julian Ghosh and Chris Hunt Cooke should be nominated for election to the offices of Chairman and Deputy Chairman, with the decision over who should be nominated for which being left to the meeting scheduled for 7 September at Beaulieu.
After due deliberation, and with one dissenter, the meeting recommended that the meeting at Beaulieu should rescind that earlier decision and nominate Chris Hunt Cooke for election to the office of Chairman and David Davies for election to the office of Deputy Chairman. The one person present who dissented did so because he felt it was unreasonable to expect someone new to the organisation, as Chris Hunt Cooke would be, to lead it.
………………………………………………Chairman Jim Whyman,
Secretary.Next meetings: All Wednesdays at TR Register HQ -
31 October; 9 January 08; 27 February 08.