TUESDAY 22 MARCH 2005
Present:
Andrew Burt (chairman) Tony Beadle Jacqueline Bickerstaff
John Billard David Davies Michael Edwards
Sandy Hamilton David Marsh Peter Mead
Rosy Pugh
In attendance:
Ian Edmunds (Classic British Quality Charter) Derek Grossmark (vice president)
Geoff Smith (vice president) John Symes (Motor Sports Association) Jim Whyman (secretary)
The chairman welcomed John Symes and thanked him for agreeing to attend occasional meetings to represent sporting interests.
1. Apologies for absenceLord Montagu; Colin Francis; Julian Ghosh; Tim Holt; David Hurley; Mike Young.
2. Approval of minutes of meeting of 16 January 2005
The chairman signed the minutes of the meeting of 16 January as accurate.
3. Matters Arising from previous meeting
3.3.8 Shows The survey about the NEC International Classic Car Show that had been undertaken by the Jaguar Enthusiasts Club had produced responses from 51 clubs, of which 24 had attended the 2004 show. The majority of the 24 had found the three day format difficult in terms of manpower and cost, and most felt the activity on the Friday had not justified the extra effort/cost. The secretary was asked to thank JEC for their initiative. Sandy Hamilton commented that the recent show at Alexandra Palace had also been extended to three days, and the Friday had been equally unpopular and unsuccessful. JW
David Davies confirmed that arrangements for the Classic Bike Show were in hand. No planning had been undertaken as yet for either Beaulieu or NEC. The secretary said he would make bookings in due course. JW
3.9 Member clubs The secretary reported that the Austin Healey Club and the Norton Owners Club had recently rejoined. He outlined correspondence between himself and Jaguar Drivers Club from which it was clear that JDC was unwilling to revise the number of members they wished to declare to a more realistic measure. John Billard commented that the position of clubs that cater for both ancient and modern vehicles was not helped by FBHVC’s constitution which lacked any guidelines on choosing a number for FBHVC subscription purposes. It was believed that the 977 declared members was little higher than 10% of the overall JDC membership, when a declaration of around 60% had been expected. The meeting agreed that JDC should not be accepted on such a low proportion. JW
9. Other matters The secretary said there had been no progress on the proposed “no small print” insurance scheme he had mentioned at the last meeting. JW
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- 2 -4. UK Legislation
Referring back to the previous meeting, the secretary said his request for a list of bodies that had been consulted by the Department of Culture Media and Sport on their fee proposals under the Licensing Act had been acknowledged, but no list had been forthcoming despite two subsequent reminders. The schedule of fees had been published shortly after the January meeting, and ranged from £1,000 for events likely to attract 5,000 people to £64,000 for those with over 90,000. John Billard commented that the National Traction Engine Trust’s Rally sub-committee had been looking into this issue and had found a variety of reactions from councils, with some being particularly helpful. It appeared there was a willingness to negotiate, but feedback from organisers who had either fallen foul of the new regulations or steered an effective route round them would be useful.
The secretary reported that responses to the following consultations had been submitted:-
DfT proposals to enforce insurance regulations from the record FBHVC had been tentatively supportive of the proposals, but had stressed the need to cater for discrepancies and time delays that might occur between the two giant databases that would be compared and pointed out that there were many situations where one might perfectly legitimately have a vehicle licensed but not insured;
DfT proposals on extending disabled peoples’ right on public transport FBHVC had pointed out that it would be essential to exempt operators who use preserved historic vehicles from proposed requirements for public transport service operators (including those offering services such as car hire) to comply with disability access legislation. Lack of an exemption would mean that such services would have to close as operators would be unwilling (if not unable) to make the necessary alterations to their vehicles;
DVLA’s review of regulations governing the registration of number plate suppliers FBHVC had been largely supportive, but had taken the opportunity to point out that the current regulations on the display of number plates prevented anyone with a vehicle made between 1 Jan 1973 and 1 Sep 2001 obtaining a replacement number plate in the original font. This point had been emphasised in a separate letter to David Jamieson, Minister at the Department for Transport, whose response had been less than encouraging. Further attempts were being made; and JW
DEFRA’s proposals on agricultural waste Nothing in the consultation had been found that suggested that farmers would be prevented from storing or keeping obsolete machinery on their land provided it was kept in an environmentally sound manner. FBHVC’s response had been that nothing should be introduced that changed that position.
5. Parliamentary Historic Vehicles Club
The chairman reported on the recent, brief, meeting of PHVC which he, Geoff Smith and David Hurley had attended. There had been There had been 3 MPs, Greg Knight, John Cryer, Kelvin Hopkins, together with Lord Coates.
Greg Knight had received an acknowledgement of the petition against the Annual Registration Charge that had been handed in to Downing Street in December. He had also drafted an Early Day Motion drawing attention to the worst elements of the proposal and this had, so far, attracted over 90 signatures.
The possibility of a national extension of local acts governing the sale of second hand goods and the organisation of occasional sales (such as the Kent Acts) had been discussed. The Home Office was likely to be consulting later in the year, but it would be worthwhile for FBHVC to make some representations in advance. The secretary said he had asked for feedback from the membership about any problems that had actually arisen from the Kent Act – without examples of individuals or organisations being disadvantaged, it was difficult to know on what grounds to make representations before a consultation is published. JW
There was support for FBHVC’s position on the display of number plates, as noted above, but not much expectation of any success. Mention was made of FBHVC’s position on enforcing insurance from the record and access to transport for the disabled. The danger of some of the skills required for the proper maintenance and restoration of older vehicles being lost was considered and Kelvin Hopkin had suggested some possible educational resources which might be available to institute some specialist training courses.
Members of PHVC would be attending Beaulieu. There would be a response to the invitation to attend the Banbury Run and the Donington Park meeting in due course. The next meeting would be in the summer.
John Billard read a letter he had received from Theresa May, his MP, in which she stated that the Conservatives had pledged to restore the rolling date for VED exemption.
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- 3 -6. EU Legislation
Geoff Smith said that the only things to add to the recent EU legislation report from FIVA was that further work was being done in connection with the re-casting of the Drivers Licence directive. The directive’s progress through the various stages of inspection was being monitored very carefully to ensure that UK’s existing rules that enable holders of car licences to drive historic buses and lorries were not put at risk and that the hard won amendments concerning towing limits were not watered down. Concern remained that some of the provisions relating to limiting access to large capacity motorcycles were excessive and attempts to incorporate moderating amendments were continuing.
There were mixed messages about the effects of proposals to reduce the proportion of Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH) in tyres – Good Year (who were not known for making tyres for historic vehicles) was pressing FIVA to seek an amendment from the proposed legislation to take tyres for historic vehicles out of the scope of the legislation, or at least to delay its implementation for such tyres, but the European Rubber Manufacturers Association said there would be no problem. FIVA could not afford the risk to its credibility of seeking an unnecessary amendment, so further work was taking place to establish the truth. The secretary commented that he had spoken to the compound specialist at Avon tyres who had said his company was able to work with PAH-low technology by balancing the reduction in PAH with an increase in styrenes. Dunlop, however, had been less positive but had promised a response in due course.
7. FIVA Report
Geoff Smith commented that he continued to be pleased by the way in which the FIVA Legislation Commission was working. A meeting was being planned for April at which representatives of the historic vehicle movements of 22 EU FIVA countries plus Norway and Switzerland would meet to improve the mechanism for identifying problems, analysing them and briefing national MEPs accordingly.
The project to survey the economic impact of the historic vehicle movement in Europe had been widely supported at a recent meeting and most remaining hurdles to progress had been overcome. Geoff Smith said he had backed down slightly from his position of requiring control of funds, and he was expecting the FIVA committee to accept responsibility for meeting any shortfall in funding and give final approval for the project to proceed at a meeting in April.
David Davies reported considerable progress with a new design of website for FIVA and said that the next FIVA Newsletter was about to be produced.
The chairman congratulated Geoff and David on their work and said he was pleased to see FIVA moving forward so effectively.
8 DVLA
Sandy Hamilton reported on a recent routine liaison meeting at Swansea. There had been a strong hint that the response to the consultation on fees and the subsequent petition had hit home and that there would be a rethink, including a reconsideration of the legal framework under which DVLA is funded, before revised proposals are published. Various current cases where FBHVC has been assisting DVLA resolve problems were reviewed. There was a sense that the relationship between FBHVC and DVLA was developing well for mutual benefit.
Tony Beadle commented that he had heard terrible tales of problems with the computerised MoT testing in Northern Ireland. It seems that the new system was inflexible even to the extent of people losing their test through being a few minutes late for appointments, and there were problems with brake balance and headlamp alignment. Sandy Hamilton made the point that testing in Northern Ireland was undertaken only by government testing stations and demand for tests was greater than capacity. The consequence was that anyone missing an appointment was likely to have to wait some weeks, or even months, for another. There was no reason why the computerised system should require higher standards for brake balance or headlamp adjustment as VOSA had categorically stated that testing standards had not been changed. The appeal in the first 2005 newsletter for anyone having problems to get in touch had not yet produced any response.
Sandy Hamilton said he had been alerted that older drivers applying for replacement driving licences after 70 were in danger of losing entitlement to drive some categories of vehicle if they failed to apply specifically for those categories. He would include a note in the DVLA column of the next newsletter. SH
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- 4 -9. Finance and Planning
The secretary had distributed accounts for the nine months to end February showing that the Federation was on course to finish the financial year ahead of budget. During the year, there had been some changes, such as the loss of revenue from Britannia Rescue and the need to pay for assistance with FIVA ID cards, and these had an implication for future budgets. The secretary said he had drafted revised budgets for 2005/6 and 2006/7 accordingly.
The chairman reminded the meeting of the results of the planning meeting that had taken place in Chipping Norton in July 2004, and suggested that the budget and other planning issues should be considered at another such meeting prior to the May committee meeting. This was agreed, and the secretary was asked to make the necessary arrangements. JW
10. Other matters
Derek Grossmark enquired about the draft Drivers’ Code that had been circulated earlier in the year. The secretary said a revised version had been prepared after comments received from several sources and was currently being considered by FIVA. He reminded the meeting that the prime purpose of the draft was to provide FIVA with a means to fulfil its obligations as a signatory to the EU Road Safety Charter.
Tony Beadle was concerned that at a recent meeting of delegates from the various Triumph clubs, the Northern Ireland representative had reported that police were requiring road run organisers to check driving licences, MoTs and insurance certificates and he was worried that this might become a requirement on the mainland. John Symes commented that a club carrying out such inspections could share liability if a participant’s paperwork was subsequently found to be out of order. He said that, because of this, the Motor Sports Association specifically recommends clubs not to inspect such documents, but to rely on the entrant’s declaration that the necessary documentation is in order – in that way, responsibility remains with the entrant. David Marsh commented that for road events, VSCC required entrants to provide a valid MoT certificate in lieu of any pre-event scrutineering.
………… .…………………………….. Chairman P H J Whyman, Secretary